Curse

Twilight Doll · Jun 02, 2005, 04:30 PM // 16:30

This is my thread of random issues mainly associated with grouping that people often run into. I have begun list of random scenarios that have come to my attention and noted remarks. Please add/comment what your own opinions are, for this thread is here to open up debate like most threads are meant to be. But unlike many threads, if you wish to state anything, please have a supporting statement rather than saying blind, igorant posts like how certain jobs suck because you don't like it. I have played every job type and the least of elementalist. It is too often that the player tends to pay attention only to what you see is what you get and ignore the rest. Remaining party members are recruited to fill empty slots. I know we don't play in a perfect community where everyone knows their job like the back of the hand but if people would stop conforming to the usual party setups then we'd have more balanced/effecient parties. I will be discussing the conditions pertaining to PvE and my theories behind them.

1. Two monks are better than one.
I think the biggest concern about having two monks is, one might not be so great or you fear your party is in danger of inadequate healing. It's a safety net. Rather than having a narrow mind, think what job could better replace a second monk if he/she is not already protection monk. Why are party members taking so much damage that you would need a second monk for healing? It could be one of the following reasons. Your monk isn't a very skilled/conservative healer. Your party lacks the debuffing/buffing skills. Like many people who play necromancers and mesmers, I know they are overlooked and people till this day still aren't aware of their skills and contributions to a party.

Possible remedies: Invite a necromancer who specializes in curses, or a anti melee/caster mesmer depending on what type of mobs you'll be facing. I know you often face more melee type mobs in the first half of the game and casters types are frequently encountered the second half.
-If you have a necromancer who uses spells such as enfeebling blood to weaken (for those that don't know, weaken=targets' base damage is reduced) target foes, or shadow of fear to reduce attacking speed there would be such high demand.
-Mesmers tend to work differently. Mesmers are more complicated. They work very differently PvP vs PvE. For example if you were to cast backfire on a target during PvP, the smart person would stop casting. However in PvE, the target would most likely end up casting regardless resulting in quick death. I think mesmers are the best class for taking out casters. I think most people are aware of this.

2. There are too many n00b warriors (and because they don't take much skill to play).
While I won't disagree with statement that there are too many n00b warriors, I do disagree where others have said it doesn't take much skill to play one. Like most jobs, believe it or not warriors do take skill to play. I mean how often do you see warriors who like to just run straight into the action and think they'll hold up especially when there's a monk in the party? It's as simple as just getting your adrenaline and unleashing your skills when ready. The problem here is warriors need to be more aware of what goes on. Often I see them stationary and just trying their very hardest to kill their one dedicated target. How about paying attention to what happens to your teammates. I know certain caster become primary targets. As a warrior it should be your job to be sustaining damage where others lack in the armor department. When you see mobs going after the casters, it is very possible for you to divert the attention of the mob towards yourself. Many parties tend have at least a couple warriors. Expert players are all about micro management. Since this is also a strategy game, it's best for you to use your skills to your discretion which you see fit for any given situation.

-Side Note
There are many warriors using swords. While this isn't necessarily bad, it's a good thing to have variety. I certainly know from playing both a sword and hammer wielding warrior, that hammers are most capabable of dishing out the numbers. More importantly, unlike sword and axes, the hammer skills knocking opponents flat on their arses is overlooked. They have the best and broad abilities to interrupt skills/spells. This kind of warrior has a slightly different style of play.

I feel every job is a support class in at least a couple aspects hence I like to call the 2nd job a support job. No single class will ever be the best if you have too much of the same thing. I would like to conclude this thread for now due to my free time being up at work. I will attempt to add/edit this post accordingly. Thanks for taking the time to read and for any educated replies.

For next time I will post something to be said about sucky rangers.

rocinantae · Jun 02, 2005, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Well i've tried my best to make a warrior that helps the party. I carry ward against melee and watch yourself. Also Armor of Earth if I have to tank something. Also I actually look to see if anyone else is casting these so I can time it out with them.

I think most of the unskilled warriors are the ones who just try to create a build that does max damage without thinking of how they could help the party there in. I use axes and I only have 4 axe skills. The rest are buffs for me and the party. IMO that helps the party cause alot more damage cause they dont take as much. Therefore they can concentrate on the job at hand.

DarrenJasper · Jun 02, 2005, 07:30 PM // 19:30

1. In 4-6 person groups, I could give a damn. But in an 8 person group you need two monks. Unless your group is the sh-- (and I'm here to tell you it's probably not) I am not going to have any fun trying to keep 8 people alive by myself. It's overly stressful, and it's unfair to heap that much responsibility on one person. We have enough as it is. 2 monks is standard, 3 is kind of nice if you have enough damage from the rest of the group.

2. Yeah, there's a lot of noob warriors... Lot of noobs in every class. I think the W/Mo noobs are just the most vocal for some reason so we notice them most. Warrior taking skill to play besides other classes? Depends on the warrior. A chimp could play a W/Mo, but some secondaries like W/N or W/Me are a little trickier and have some elements of skill. But compared to other class primaries? Definitely less.

Scaphism · Jun 02, 2005, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twilight Doll

It's a safety net. Rather than having a narrow mind, think what job could better replace a second monk if he/she is not already protection monk. Why are party members taking so much damage that you would need a second monk for healing?

This depends entirely on your reasons for playing PVE. If your goal is to play one diverse build that can handle every mission in the game, then well, you need to diversify your characters.
For me, and most people in my guild, PVE is about getting where we need to go. Usually that's capping an elite skill, getting to an outpost, or beating a mission. In those situations, I want my safety net. Give me 2 or 3 monks so I can stop thinking and just play.
If I want a high-pressure, high reward fight, I'll go PVP. In PVE I want to tune out. Give me 3 monks in my team of 8 so I can stop worrying- I'm sure we'll beat it, as long as there are a minimum level of interrupts in the group. Hell, a group of 8 pure healing monks could beat every mission- it would just take forever to wand every single creature to death.
That's the way PVE is designed- you only have to deal with a certain number of threats at any time, and if you have the defense to survive the onslaught, you have inevitability on your side- provided you can punch through their defenses as well and it doesn't become a stalemate.

My point is that a good default setting is to have the defense needed to deal with all the predictable threats that come your way. Once you have that beat, the rest is cake. More damage/disruption simply speeds up the process.

Digitalblast · Jun 02, 2005, 08:05 PM // 20:05

With regards to noobs monk that cant heal attitude(my secondary char is mo/mes), i have come across characters that have never done an armor upgrade. When they get hit, its a very damaging blow, two hits and they are dead most times. How is one suppose to heal someone if they die in 2-3 seconds. There are many out there like that so watch what ya say regarding monk not healing properly.

Twilight Doll · Jun 02, 2005, 08:38 PM // 20:38

I guess there was was a misunderstanding point of view that I should clarify. I am mainly talking about mission parties.

DarrenJasper · Jun 02, 2005, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Oh yeah and what the hell are jobs? Do you mean classes?

Weezer_Blue · Jun 02, 2005, 10:45 PM // 22:45

All Monks Are Healers

I am a smiter. I am not a healer. I am sometimes a protecter. A protecter is not a healer. There are 3 kinds of primary monks.

-Healers
Yes. We all know these! They make sure you don't die instantly and miserably under the crushing mobs of enemies that collide with your sorry armour every day. They put up with your incompetance as you rush head first into 300 enemies who have their swords waiting for you. They may be assholes. And they may suck. These may be the downfall of your party! But they are not alone in the monk profession.

-Protecters
Lesser known protecters keep you alive in an alternative way. They, rather than healing and thus negating damage done by enemies, prevent it all together. Or sometimes, replace it with a positive heal. Protecters are harder to play, but thankfully, most people that play them know what they're doing. You must cast the spell before the enemy gets to kill your ally, and then hope that your healer is watching just in case. Protecters can make your party immune to spike damage, as of Air Elementalists, and they can make warrior's seemingly swing at air. But wait! There's more!!

-Smiters
The overlooked monk. Smiters are damage deals. If played right, a smiter is an ultimate tank. Cast Shield of Judgement and Balthazar's Aura on yourself, then go out and wait for the enemy warriors to take the bait. They'll be dead and confused in seconds. Smiters usually use a combination of Smiting and Protection prayers to stay alive during the fiercest of battles. They can deal godly amounts of damage and often live longer than warrior/monks.

Rhunex · Jun 03, 2005, 12:10 AM // 00:10

You know what, it's always the person who says "open your mind" that has the most closed mind of all. What you have plainly forgotten about GW is that if you want a group with designated jobs, you don't pub. You NEVER pub in a game when you want people doing certain jobs certain ways. The easier example I can think of is a FPS, because my clan plays Tribes: Vengeance, and if you pub on there, it's a completely different ball game than if you go into a pub with your clanmates on your team. 100% of the time, the clan wins, because you increase your efficiency in combat if you're organized. Skill really has nothing to do with it, as long as your organization doesn't fail. For example, another clan on T:V has horrible individual players...it's seriously sad. But when they team up, they're hard to beat in CTF(not arena though, for aforementioned horrible skills).

So, the first thing you're missing out on is some basic knowledge in you:
"Two monks are better than one." arguement

First of all, you are failing to notice that later in the game, 2 monks are usually better than one. This is because parties are 8 in size, and hordes of monsters will attack you. It is not easy for a primary monk to keep 8 people healed at all times just because you don't want to die. This is literally impossible, if you count skill recharge times, primary Monk's lack of energy, and primary Monk's lack of casting spells quick enough. Also, you say people are unaware that Necromancers and Mesmers are overlooked when being considered for partying. That is hardly the case with my N/Me(coincidence...) who is quickly picked for a lot of parties. I could go offensive with a N/Me and nuke a lot of enemies, or I could go pure supporter and do hexes and curses, or I could be defensive and heal my teammates(using well of blood, empathy, etc.). And a lot of people realize that Necromancers and Mesmers accel in such aspects. It is when you go pubbing that people may overlook them, when people try to make a group that they think will be successful(like, 1 warrior, 1 monk, 6 rangers with pets...)

Your second arguement:
"There are too many n00b warriors (and because they don't take much skill to play)."

This is a completely arrogant statement. You need to stop assuming that everyone on games are out there to be the most hardcore player evur. A lot of people, these "n00b warriors" may just be online for a few hours a day(or week, or month) and may not have the time of day to strategize exactly when they're going to take 3 steps left and 1 step right to dodge Dune Burrower attacks. You also need to stop assuming that going into a public situation that your party is going to be filled with people who know(or care) about doing everything exactly your way. Perhaps the warrior you call a n00b is actually absorbing damage while the casters sit back. You say it's a warrior's duty to make sure that the casters don't get hit, even though they're the ones taking the most hits, the hardest hits, and you give very little credit to the amount of defense 1 warrior can provide for a group of casters, even if he is a "n00b." I have seen W/E and W/Mo pull in a lot of damage, and you seem to forget how much warriors can take(W/E and W/Mo especially)

On your finishing words:
Quit slamming people. Get over yourself, and let people play the way they want to. Just because your hours of GW aren't spent in perfect bliss, doesn't mean you have to right to attack the way people play. I see this time and time again from one game to the next, and it really gets old to see so many people harrassing other styles of play. Don't flame rangers, because you're minds eye is still tightly shut to anything near considering your fellow gamers.

Jun 03, 2005, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Digitalblast

i have come across characters that have never done an armor upgrade.

Ah, I love running through Ring of fire on my El/nec with 30AL INFUSED armor

Twilight Doll · Jun 03, 2005, 02:00 AM // 02:00

Quote:

Oh yeah and what the hell are jobs? Do you mean classes?

Lol sorry about that. I still stand from ffxi and they were called jobs. It kind of carried over.

Twilight Doll · Jun 03, 2005, 02:22 AM // 02:22

I see a lot of things wrong your with post... and I happened to have written the perfect reply but my browser reset. I am a tad exhausted after having typed up a rather long reply to your post and don't feel like doing it again. It just isn't worth it. Instead I'll just make it short.

To me it seems like you've done nothing but based things on assumptions and have taken things out of context. You have your opinions and I have my own. I did not intend this thread to tell people how they should play but rather other things to consider. You have made too many ignorant statements that I'm overwhelmed at this point.

I will however continue my list of things like I originally intended. The only thing your post has seemed to have accomplished maybe in your eyes was an attack on another person's opinion and trying to sound intelligent about it.

Tell Me WHERE have I made the many assumptions that you point the finger at. You notice that you are doing exactly the same. While you make good points in your post, I feel you have lost credibality because you contradict yourself.

If a person is on the forums reading up and posting on threads ect, don't you think they have some kind of driven motivation to become a better player in one way or another?

I agree after reading the party where I said "narrow mind", I could've chosen a better pair of words, but I just wanted to get my point across.

I like how every other sentence of yours has the word "you" in it. You are flaming my post and that's perfectly fine with me because it was only expected.

Until next time...

Xavz · Jun 03, 2005, 03:11 AM // 03:11

Speaking of characters running around in unupgraded armor - Blackace is tough to heal when he takes the aggro.

As a healer, I'll agree with the statement that you don't need two healers. However, I very highly recommend it and would go with three if possible - one prot and two healing for PvE. There's just no reason not to outside of being short healers - but that's what henchmen are for. It's completely unrealistic to expect one healer to keep a group alive in Hell's Precipice, especially if they're not being buffed insanely with BiP, Life Bond, etc.

DrSLUGFly · Jun 03, 2005, 03:14 AM // 03:14

I'm thankful for those who posted ideas and thoughts on classes. I didn't bother reading any of the conversation based posts since they're 90% of the time just flames or arguement anyway...

I'm a noob e/n and I'm thankful for any thought out ideas people have.

Scaphism · Jun 03, 2005, 08:00 AM // 08:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twilight Doll

Lol sorry about that. I still stand from ffxi and they were called jobs. It kind of carried over.

Before anyone gets too carried away, in Guild Wars they're called professions. Not jobs, not classes.

I certainly hope this topic doesn't derail in flames, because I think there's an interesting topic behind it, but it needs more fleshing out.
I'd say there's a certain standard for groups, at least groups I play in when I PVE. Generally that's 2 monks, 1 tank, and at least one character capable of interrupting/shutting down enemies. That can be an elementalist with maelstrom/meteor shower, a mesmer with a whole array of skills, a ranger with a bevy of interrupts, or even a skilled warrior. Really the only profession without any hard shutdown is the monk- though smiting does have a few knockdowns, they're very hard to use effectively as interrupts.

However, the template is flexible. I prefer teams with an emphasis on defense- if we're tough enough, we'll slog our way through the mission. Playing strong defense gives you a chance to recover from mistakes. Playing a strong offense means you press your enemy and dont give them room to take advantage, perhaps forcing them into making mistakes (though this rarely happens with the AI). I know which strategy I'm more comfortable playing, but I can still adapt to others- or I'd like to think I can, at least.

So I think this thread has a valid point- you certainly COULD develop alternative strategies, and one day they might be the paradigm we're looking to break. That's how the game progresses, and it's just the kind of discussion I'd like to see more of on these boards.

The first key, however, is understanding what the current paradigm is, and why it works, and I don't think many people have spent time thinking about that- yet.

Jun 03, 2005, 08:23 AM // 08:23

I've beaten many missions without monks. Just helped a PUG through Elona's Reach with only the healer hench(who barely helped) and tips on how to do it. Same thing can be done with Dunes of Despair and even Thirsty River. Just have to know how to replace mass healing defense with disruption offense.

Burem · Jun 03, 2005, 09:07 AM // 09:07

I have to agree in some ways that people tend to conform to the general idea of what a profession is "intended" to do and get fairly angry. I can't tell you how many times I got whined at for being an air elementalist instead of fire (until I got to the last mission, anyway). Or how many times my Mo/W was assumed to be a healer not a tank (tanks better then my warrior does).

Alot of people have so many ideas about how you should play your class. I, personally, don't want to hear them. The other night on my W/Mo some guy was trying to tell me how worthless my build was and yadda yadda yadda. Of course, when the rest of the group died halfway to our objective (we were doing quests) I solod the rest of it.

Juhanah · Jun 03, 2005, 09:50 AM // 09:50

I don't like when i'm in a party with more than 1 primary healer.
We kinda keep double healing people which is totaly useless. I'd rather be in a party with someone who can just back up healing when its getting hot than having 2 primary healer.

When i was doing the Ice Cave of Sorrow with my monk today.. I actualy had to say "can you guys please get hit? I feel useless." we all laughed it a lot.. I was the only monk but we had a pretty good party and most of the time no one was taking damage. So i kept using Mend Ailment on people when they were bleeding or crippled.

So no a monk is not always needed.. 2 monks even less. When i join party with 2 healer, i stick to protection and do minimal support heal or else i will feel useless.

Burem · Jun 03, 2005, 10:01 AM // 10:01

If you can do ring of fire with one healer I salute you.

Juhanah · Jun 03, 2005, 10:11 AM // 10:11

hehe probably not. I just finished Thunderhead keeps on my monk earlier. I'll see how its like later tomorow. Or next week if i don't have much time.
1 thing i really like tho, is when people actualy bring self heal/protection skills. It make things so much easier sometime.
I only play PvE for now and i usualy don't use my second profession skills so im totally heal+protect but the energy drain pretty fast in some place if no one is able to heal or protect them self a bit.

But i agree that 2 monk in that place might be needed for backup. If you agree with the other monk that each of you keep the same 4 healing target each, it could be pretty good and it would also avoid the double healing on the same person while another also need a heal.